The majority of the community sucks (or does it?)

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by snaek

you do realize it got the name "spamadan" for a reason right?

Maybe that is why people don't pug anymore - they are more interested in trading.

[Bryant Again]

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

lol in all your seriousness you're funny. Time to open your eyes.

To what, bullcrap? Because that's all I do see at this point, and I certainly don't like it.

What I've been asking for in these last few posts is the evidence showing that you can pinpoint exactly what it is that the majority wants. You haven't been able to provide me with that because it's impossible. If it was accurate to judge the opinion of a minority to a majority then elections would be over in an instant.

Am I saying I disagree with the implementation of heroes? Hell no, I already said that on this page. What I'm saying is that you can't come to a decision based on a few separate and personal experiences and that ANet doesn't always know what to do with their game.

Right now, the latter fact is most easily evident: PvP community has been shat on, PvE has been horribly dumbed down for no apparent reason, and the problems go on. Threads like these are just supporting the fact.

I'm also not saying that Guild Wars is doomed. At the most basic level it's still fun, it's still accessible, highly optimized, and has "free to play" on the cover. No matter what ANet does to the deeper portion of the game, it's still going to be successful.

As I've been saying numerous times now, all that we've been discussing and hoping to fix are concerned with the less widely accessed portion of the game. Why was it a "good move" to disregard a more experienced portion of the playerbase in favor of those who are less so, especially when the latter can find enjoyment in games much more easily?

[snaek]

well usually, you know, the best place would be a mission outpost, saying "lfg mission"...did you even use party search?

go to something like venta cemetary.
count the number of people there.
try to form a group.
break it down into 3 categories:
1) wanted to group
2) said they did not want to group
3) said nothing

also...pics or it didn't happen.

btw, your "experiment" is pretty baseless. i can survey my house and tell you that 100% of those people think im awesome...

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I'm a RTS gamer at core. Controlling several units, enhance their abilities and use them to complement themselves and achieve the goals is part of a RTS game.

Guild Wars isn't an RTS.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Don't see what is the difference of having 8 players running builds that complement each other and have 2p+6 heroes doing the same.

Thats like saying playing basketball with 4 robots on my team is the same as playing with 4 humans on my team.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I like the overpowered hero builds bit. You can roll any areas with competent players much faster.

You could...which makes it even worse that you can still roll over it with heroes.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Again if heroes are so good why aren't GvG 2 players plus 6 heroes?

Because 4 is the minimum. And don't get me started on how heroes killed PvP for many months. But can we please get this thread away from the heroes debate. It is incredibly off topic, has been discussed at length, and I still don't want this thread locked. My final thought is they were a blessing and a curse.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Because read the wind is so more powerful now And if you don't use them how can it ruin your game experience?!?!?!

We've been over this several times.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

And don't forget PvP nerfs also hit mobs.

Of course. The problem is buffs hit humans more because they can build more abusive bars and use the skills more effectively than much of the poor enemy AI. This isn't even taking into consideration the PvE skills and consumables which put humans on a different playing field than any PvE challenge they would come across.

[pumpkin pie]

'who wants to pug and have some fun?' < if you say need help with quest i might have answer, not when people says lets have some fun cos it sounded like you leave the group. just a thought.

[Bryant Again]

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

I just provided you with one example of what the majority wants: heroes. It was backed up with arguments and even an experiment, that's way more than the bags of air you have been selling in this thread.

I'm talking about "bags of air"???

You go ahead and do one little "experiment", completely disregarding what anyone else may experience, and you hold it as supporting evidence? The equivalent is me going to my work, asking who they want for president, and sending that to Congress saying "here's obviously what everyone wants, make it happen" - and they deem it logical.

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

I thought we were past that stage several pages ago. Numbers and money. It's a hard world out there.

That's understandable, but doing it horrendously is not.

I've already given several out-of-my-ass suggestions that are much more healthier than what we have with PvE skills/consets: lower the difficulty of Normal mode, give the same rewards in normal mode as in hard mode, lessen the requirements for several titles...ALL OF THESE maintain far more integrity and game depth than what we have now. Worst part of it all? I thought of them on a dime.

These changes don't help the majority, they make them worse. The majority "sucks" at the game but ANet made that not matter, not only that but they catered solely to people who didn't care about the game.

So, no. What ANet has done is inexcusable.

[Bryant Again]

Why should they be put in a good light for terrible decisions?

[Bryant Again]

We tried, and under Guru law another topic regarding it would be closed. The best we've gotten thus far has been a nerf to Ursan and getting rid of most of the "time" factor (downside is this buffed PvE skills considerably, but I'd prefer that to grind). Everything else is still there.

The least we can all do at this point is to spread the word and get as many people knowing about what ANet did as possible, and a thread with 20k views isn't too bad.

[snaek]

Originally Posted by gun pierson

You're always welcome to do the experiment together and set up the rules. Btw the three continents are not my house nor do I know the people that play in them. Are you suggesting those players are not representative because they play with heroes? Or that people don't wanne play with me?Just checking as I don't follow you there.

the bias is that spamadan, kodash bazaar, etc are not towns that generally you'd find people grouping up in. even without bias, no matter what the set-up, whether you or i conducted an "experiment", it will most likely produce poor results. we just cannot attain a large enough sample size (well, we could, but it would take multiple outposts over multiple weeks).

The only thing you guys are doing now is spreading a lot of negativism amongst fellow players and putting Anet in a bad light.

well we are discussing the problems of gw. if you asked us to discuss what we liked about gw, it would be different. pointing out problems naturally has "bad guy" connotations to them, but that is not the case here. i simply want to try to help make way for improvements. i do not dislike gw or anet, but i will call out any problems or mistakes i see--not to attack anyone, but to simply have them addressed.

regarding changes made to gw1:
i've already made my viewpoint on the matter... and that is to just hope for the best in gw2. in terms of gw updates, i simply want skill balances, bug fixes, ai improvements, game mechanic improvements, etc--things that they are already doing (albeit at low priority...still better than nothing at all).

Originally Posted by bryant again

We tried, and under Guru law another topic regarding it would be closed. The best we've gotten thus far has been a nerf to Ursan and getting rid of most of the "time" factor (downside is this buffed PvE skills considerably, but I'd prefer that to grind). Everything else is still there.

as old as that letter is (and the first one too), it's still very much relevant today. this is the first time reading it for me, and i think other people should do the same if they haven't already.

really, if i knew bout this earlier, it woulda saved a lot of time lol. i woulda just been like here, read this so i don't have to explain it.

[boko]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Maybe that is why people don't pug anymore - they are more interested in trading.

Or maybe, that most people who don't like the new GW and realised that the GW is more of a solo game now, don't play anymore and switched to other games like WOW?

And as for Gun Pierson's little experiment, it means nothing. You make a survey among people who are left in the game, who just can't be bothered with the new direction of GW and who stayed to grind titles, and you expect us to think that the result is gonna be unbiased? Your little experiment is 2 years too late, my friend...

In conclusion, GW is a mess. But no matter what Anet does, nothing is gonna change. People who left ain't coming back. They moved on. Anet decided to cater to soloers, and that's the population that they will get... Is the current GW a good Coop game? No, definitely not anymore. It is closer to a NWN or Baldur's game than anything else (i.e 1hero+6-7 npc)... and very far from being the CORPG which it was originally designed to be...and even PvP is getting bad, with its fair share of problems e.g ladder manipulation, too many exploits, the abomination that is HB, etc...

However, not caring about the current issues and saying that everything is fine is wrong, since the way it stands ATM, Anet is probably using GW1 to gather opinions on what to add to GW2. The last thing players want is for GW2 to be a continuation of the mess that GW1 has becomed... I hope they don't add the abomination that is PvE skills to GW2, since I don't see myself playing for hours just to level up 1 series of skills...+ in addition of having to level up too... This is going to be a nightmare....

Edit : Grammatical mistakes! ZZZzzz ...Corrected Pearson to Pierson... my bad...

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

We tried, and under Guru law another topic regarding it would be closed. The best we've gotten thus far has been a nerf to Ursan and getting rid of most of the "time" factor (downside is this buffed PvE skills considerably, but I'd prefer that to grind). Everything else is still there.

Its amazing how good that Avarre post is. It is probably the best post in the history of this forum.

[Fril Estelin]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The least we can all do at this point is to spread the word and get as many people knowing about what ANet did as possible, and a thread with 20k views isn't too bad.

Your post illustrates what went wrong (for me, I'm sure you see it differently) in this thread: you were trying to spread a word, not listen to the words I was saying (I wasn't discussing Anet's responsibility in this problem, but the player's responsibility, where the vast majority won't take any responsibility). Sorry to have to say it, I said before I would leave the thread to you (with mods doing nothing, I'm not complaining, just stating a fact), but your post made me jump on my seat.

[Gun Pierson]

Yes you're right Fril and I'm sorry I took the bait. They are not here to debate, but to 'spread the word' in such a fanatical way that it even damages people who were in favor of Avarre's letter.

I reread that letter as I supported it and still do. I feel naive thinking something constructive could come out of it here, always with the current playerbase in mind as they still play.

Shame on you guys, you abused this thread and the ideas of people with good intentions. I even send a PM to Regina. Shame on me because I took sides for the underdog (the playerbase that 'sux') while at the same time I'm a vet myself and in favor of Avarre's letter.

Out of respect, I deleted almost all my post because I'm at fault too.

I'm in favor of a complete removal of this thread from guru.

EDIT

[Bryant Again]

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Yes you're right Fril and I'm sorry I took the bait. Bryant is not here to debate, he's here to 'spread the word' in such a fanatical way that it even damages people who were in favor of Avarre's letter.

None of my discussion was "bait" to draw you into, it was there for you to talk about, to respond to. If you don't want to respond to it then don't. If you disagree with it then say so (which is what you've been doing).

I find it interesting you point out to me alone, though. If you saw when I came back it was because of people largely in favor of keeping the game degrading, in favor of keeping the players inexperienced and jaded. Otherwise I wouldn't be here.

I'm sorry that my discussion did not intersect with what yours, Fril, and that I often times went off-topic. But I'm not sorry for what I've said, because I do strongly believe that there are problems with GW that need to be addressed that would better the game in both it's quality and longevity. If we want the community to "suck less", we need the game to suck less.

It certainly doesn't help that many experienced players don't have something to care about anymore. I personally lack the motivation to teach players to get better because a. portions of the game have been "pushed aside" and b. well, it's not really required: Pick up some consumables and PvE skills and there's really not a whole lot you have to worry about, honestly. I could tell them about the millions of build combinations they can come up with, but I'm under the belief that if it's not worth using it's not worth learning.

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

...I even send a PM to Regina.

hehehe, can't deny that that gave me a bit of a chuckle, though.

[Rocky Raccoon]

You are all right and you are all wrong, time to close this wall of text.

[Improvavel]

Ok lets say prophecies was harder.

Now lets analyze why prophecies was harder.

1- People knew very little about the game.
2- People had to rely on other people that knew very little about the game or henchmen with really bad builds to play.
3- For a large portion of the game you were limited to a very small number of skills.
4- Max armor was late in game.
5- Max damage weapons was late in the game.
6- Elite skills were late in the game.
7- 8 size party was only fron dragons lair onwards.
8- To salvage stuff you had to rely on luck.
9- Customization of armor, weapons and whatnot was a lot harder.
10- Ability to change secondary profession was quite late.

[Fril Estelin]

I'm sorry that my discussion did not intersect with what yours, Fril, and that I often times went off-topic. But I'm not sorry for what I've said, because I do strongly believe that there are problems with GW that need to be addressed that would better the game in both it's quality and longevity.

Next time you setup a discussion on player skill level, just imagine that a group of people jump into your bandwagon and transform it into the way they see it. Actually, this can probably be done very easily with a lot of casual gamers. Just imagine your point being diluted into a series of off-topic where everyone claims importance, because that's how they see "the game". Just imagine this going on for more than a month and let me know what you'd do.

If we want the community to "suck less", we need the game to suck less.

Or we can actually make the community suck less, and not by refereing them to Guru threads and wikis that will teach them to mimic stuff? (note: some threads are pure brilliance as they actually teach you why you do things one way, and give you the skills to start learning by yourself, instead of the "read wiki and then come back") To which you responded by saying that the fact that Anet removed the need for skill make you care less or teaching: what about the actual players that will benefit from your knowlledge?

I do understand I'm on a very small group (mainly myself, group of 1) of people trying to get accross an utopic message of players taking the collective responsibility into their hands, and I'm facing the wall of "well not my job, and furthermore skill does not matter anymore according to Anet". But please don't bring back the old discussion on "Anet needs to bring back the need for skills and only then will I consider doing something", only to say that a group of people (I removed the name of quoted forumer to try to avoid pointing at anyone) did it to satisfy the Guru rules. So this thread is an artificial means to revive Avarre's thread at the expense of what the thread was actually trying to discuss (and I don't mean the thread title, I mean the OP and other explanation I gave later).

Maybe I won't get a reply to my post (another time) because I'm on the ignore list (or you're effectively being ignored me, like the point I was trying to make). Whatever GW2 brings, it won't change the community, that's the new scoop I can tell you about GW2!

[qvtkc]

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

You are all right and you are all wrong, time to close this wall of text.

Ohnoes too much truth. Let's close

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Ok lets say prophecies was harder.

Now lets analyze why prophecies was harder.

1- People knew very little about the game.
2- People had to rely on other people that knew very little about the game or henchmen with really bad builds to play.
3- For a large portion of the game you were limited to a very small number of skills.
4- Max armor was late in game.
5- Max damage weapons was late in the game.
6- Elite skills were late in the game.
7- 8 size party was only fron dragons lair onwards.
8- To salvage stuff you had to rely on luck.
9- Customization of armor, weapons and whatnot was a lot harder.
10- Ability to change secondary profession was quite late.

That's not why, although I agree with reason 9. Prophecies endgame was far harder than for example Nightfall endgame. Skills from later chapters, especially Nightfall but also Eye of the North and Factions, are vastly more powerful than what you can find in Prophecies. I mean...

Warrior IAS
Prophecies: either take double damage, or do less damage, or don't use any other skills.
Nightfall: Perfect PvE IAS and you don't even spend energy on it.

Elementalist elite
Prophecies: Elemental Attunement maybe... or like Glyph or Renewal or something...
Nightfall: SEARING FLAMES

Monking
Prophecies: Word of Healing, solid skill I admit.
Nightfall: Healer's Boon oh my now your Orison outpowers WoH so much that they had to buff it to prevent it from looking plain silly.

Mesmer
Prophecies: You had to work hard to make it work.
Nightfall: CRY OF PAIN CRY OF PAIN CRY OF PAIN WHO CARES ABOUT INTERRUPTS LETS NUKE SH*T

[Grj]

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Ohnoes too much truth. Let's close

What "too much truth" all i see here is mostly misguided views and sweeping statements made by nobody's whom are either bored or got nothing to do in game with alil truth thrown in here and there.

Again nobody care's when the 55/600 invimonk took off back ion the day, people scream for the shadow form underworld farm while all the time people can speed clear it in teams in 10-20mins, nobody cares about that.

Nobody cares about near all dungeons/quests can be run in EOTN in hard mode by a 600/smite.

People in this thread claim they care about the playerbase but wanna be selictive about it to suit their own agenda, pathetic

Now we have some discussion here about changing some PvE skills, touting the fact it'll improve the base skill level of "noobs" that infest this game when it will not change anything.

It's like a vast amount of PvP'ers asking for builds/skills to be nerfed all in the name of "balance" only for after the game update to roll in and 5 minutes later the next build to take over and the same people to start whining.

Some people use "balance" as an excuse to change what they're getting owned by/force a play style onto the playerbase or to instill a little amount of satisfaction to a small vocal minority when they resrict people doing stuff ingame.

Discussions like this are futile, the quote wars continues until someone gets bored/ the thread gets locked or the posters in this thread get "converted" to their way of thinking.

Why is this still going on, what does it matter? Anet won't/refuse to pull their finger out to make the changes... i got alil hope for the update next month but i very much doubt it.

Regardless these issues, it'll all be forgotton soon when the slew of GW2 info starts to come out and im sure even the people in this thread will throw out/disregard all the issues here and in other threads once anet start turning up the charm.

[snaek]

^your right...the game will never be balanced so its pointless to even try. i like your attitude.

Originally Posted by fril estelin

Or we can actually make the community suck less, and not by refereing them to Guru threads and wikis that will teach them to mimic stuff? (note: some threads are pure brilliance as they actually teach you why you do things one way, and give you the skills to start learning by yourself, instead of the "read wiki and then come back") To which you responded by saying that the fact that Anet removed the need for skill make you care less or teaching: what about the actual players that will benefit from your knowlledge?

honestly fril, your posts aren't that much better. our viewpoint is that the game must change in order to better facilitate a learning environment. why do you disagree so much with this and think that your viewpoint is so much better in helping the community? if you want to make a guide, then start up a guide, we're not gonna argue with you or try to stop you from having that happen; why do you have to rag on us for wanting to help out in a different way?

the problem with gw is that because of the game it has become, it has attracted player-types of that which do not have (or want) to learn to a high degree. i think that is why people like bryant and dreamwind are receiving such flak--people have become accustomed and now desire this low-skill level type of game that reward with titles and items.